“Bilkszto challenged her politely and offered facts and his personal experience - ‘lived experience’, in woke parlance, which is held as almost the highest standard of ‘evidence’ by the progressive left…”
I suspect you know this, but… your claim here of “almost the highest standard of ‘evidence’” for the progressive left is incorrect.
“Lived experience” is *only* valid when it is from people with intersectionality points.
When it is that of a white male, it is no evidence at all.
I hope his family sues the government and the consultant both for millions, and wins.
Since because of what they allowed to happen repeatedly, he will have no more lived experiences.
What can we do to challenge that? Lived experiences needs to include everyone. It's never just for 'marginalized' groups, many of which aren't much marginalized anyway. Do you ever challenge that notion, that you don't have a 'lived experience' that's valid as a white man? I ask sincerley, not judgementally.
I challenge the premise that “lived experience” makes one’s position or logic more valid. Especially when the topic is public policy.
A great way to present this to a leftist is to point out “Just because you’ve never served in the military doesn’t mean your opinion on how much we spend on defense or which wars are worthwhile versus senseless is invalid, despite your lack of ‘lived experience’”.
Lived experiences are important, but they're also subject to scrutiny. When I wrote on Medium, I seemed surrounded by women who swam in patriarchy and black women who slogged through systematic, 'baked in' racism every day. And I'm like, "How come I never notice all the patriarchy?" Which led me to invent my own Zen feminist koan: If a man acts misogynist and women don't notice, have they been oppressed?
'Lived experiences' are personal anecdotes which may be more or less accurate, and sometimes are filtered through an incredible amount of bias, bigotry, trauma, privilege, or whatever. But it's not *evidence*. It's testimony, maybe, and it's subject to the court of opinion. And yeah, you don't have to have specific experiences to be able to comment on them. I'm allowed to have opinions on the extent of racism against blacks (or lack thereof) even though I'm white. You can have opinions on women or feminism even though you're not a woman. We can have opinions on the rich and the poor without ever having been either, but sometimes someone who's been there has a lot to teach from their own lived experience.
“Lived experiences are important, but they're also subject to scrutiny”
You are not allowed to be a card-carrying member of the left tribe and believe this, much less say it out loud.
Your statement is literally (old school definition) the opposite of the use of that language by the activist left.
Lived experience is the final word on any subject - at least when it a) comes from a person with the appropriate number of intersectionality points, and b) tows the leftist line.
To suggest otherwise is to be a racist, anti-LGBTQ++++ bigot.
You don’t get to just define words or challenge phrases after leftists have already done so.
This is what I meant by pointing out you will not be able to long maintain your “left lean” if you continue to insist on thinking for yourself.
You appear to have a limited understanding of who's on the left. The ones I think we both agree on are the woke 'progressives', who are actually the Regressive Left, having successfully kicked out any actual progressivism. Some folks on the left are still truly progressive and don't go in for all the woke stupidity. I identify a a liberal, but more traditionalist. I came of age in '80s (graduated high school, college) and I still believe in the values of free speech, individualism, giving a leg up to others who were born on the wrong rung of the economic ladder ('privilege' in woke parlance, although they don't understand what it means), etc. The difference between myself and the woke left is that I understand the need for boundaries. That some free speech isn't protected and it's outlined in the Constitution, and so-called 'hate speech' is. Although we've had to draw a few boundaries around that too, because I'm not okay with saying, "kill all the gay Lilliputians for Jesus".
Ideology is a spectrum, on both sides of the center. My right-wing friends aren't 'right wing' the way many would say--a blanket condemnation of the right. The folks just to the right of center aren't much different from me on t'other side. So I know how the woke define words and hold 'lived experience' on high on the Tabernacle, but I don't agree with them--and since they've taken liberties with words and meanings I'm doing the same.
Andrew Doyle on Tara Henley's Lean Out podcast recently made the point that the real battle we're fighting is not between left and right, but liberty lovers and authoritarians. It's clear there are many of both on both sides. So the question isn't actually, "Are you left or right?" but "Are you in favour of liberty or not?" If a person can only see the authoritarianism on the *other* side--they're authoritarians. They approve of what their side is doing and supporting and they probably don't even recognize it as authoritarianism.
I'm looking for my fellow liberty-lovers, whichever side they're on. Are you?
Some people love to bully other people. And these initiatives give them an excuse to feel good about it. There’s nothing more dangerous or seductive than sanctimoniousness. So it hardly a surprise that things sometimes go horribly wrong.
Whatta grift these people have! They get paid to hate on white people! And encourage MORE racism rather than less, with classes that feed the need for ‘antiracism’ training!
You really need to read Jonathan's Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" to understand political ideologies, and what drives their various proponents. It's incredibly eye-opening. You'll stop confusing your liberals, or one thing, but I imagine you're probably confusing conservatives too.
Liberty lovers *always* think for themselves. It doesn't matter which 'side' you're on.
Would love to be in one of those classes, I’d let her have it, I would relish an opportunity to do so. Any consequences would be worth getting under that nasty racists skin.
LOL. I like to think the same thing but if you're in a DEI class you're almost certainly being forced to by an employer, and if you give her too much crap it could get you fired.
Bilkszto sued the TDSB and I think the DEI bitch too, but he still killed himself. She must be so relieved.
Having been involved in DEI since the early days and looking back on it after rejecting the whole paradigm, it’s clear that such a subjective role is ripe for grifters to play victim and take advantage of guilty white people to enrich themselves. I’ve become cynical about all of it. I think people who make their money thus are unqualified for much else and happened to get lucky in when they jumped on the white guilt gravy train.
Some white individuals are racist. But not all white people are, and those who aren’t are well within their rights to push back when they are called racist simply because of their skin color. People who make such blanket accusations need to stop being so fragile when they’re called out on their stereotyping.
“People who make such blanket accusations need to stop being so fragile when they’re called out on their stereotyping.”
Due respect, you have this wrong. Those people are not being fragile; they have figured out how to weaponize - and in some cases like this one, monetize - the white guilt of so many on the left.
Were it only the first instance of what she did, I would actually say that it is the now dead educator who needed to stop being so fragile.
That they let it continue even after being notified of obviously egregious behavior -meaning they were endorsing it - is what is heinous and imo makes both the government and the consultant partially responsible for the man’s death.
I agree we should push back. This poor guy pushed back but didn’t have the strength to withstand the judgement of the haters and the cowardice of the people who wouldn’t stand up for him though they knew better.
Were it only the first instance of what the consultant did, I would actually agree with you and say that it is the now dead educator who needed to stop being so fragile.
That they let it continue even after being notified of obviously egregious behavior meant the government was actively endorsing it. That is heinous and imo makes both the government and the consultant partially responsible for the man’s suicide.
DEI based on Critical Social Justice is toxic bullshit. And it is amazing that Richard's colleagues were all too afraid to speak, or they agreed with the abuse. In any case, a pox on them all.
It's hardly amazing. Canadian education is just as woke-infested as American education. And wokies are a bunch of wusses. The private chats revealed not everyone was down with the racism training they were getting from Ojo-Thompson and that they agreed with Richard. Now at the City of Sarnia (close to the American border if you're not familiar with it), several of them challenged her and she ran out with her tail between her legs.
And now they're finding out what it feels like to be on the receiving end. Tragically, Americans have merely exchanged woke rightism for woke leftism. Brand new management, same as the last.
And as the left laments the demise of Stephen Colbert (was it political? Financial? Does he just suck?), another tragedy is that humour will still continue to suck, because now it will be verboten to criticize the right, rather than the left.
I am aware that some on the left, including the center-left, are trying to claim there is a “woke” right.
That doesn’t make it true.
Again, there are plenty of things wrong with the hard right. What they do share in common with the woke left is a desire to use authoritarian government power to impose what they want on others.
But it still doesn’t make them “woke” in ANY sense of that term.
Sure and many supposed ‘leaders’ in education are no leaders at all, they may have leadership titles, but they are mostly followers, conformists and afraid of their own shadow. I am involved this kind of nonsense as a parent at the OCDSB, we have a long fight ahead of us.
People are bullies. And what better excuse than denouncing racism? There’s nothing like the feeling of self-righteousness. And even a man’s tragic suicide isn’t enough to make this woman reflect on her behavior. The TDSB needs to stop throwing money at these bogus sessions.
It reminds me of all the whiny white Medium feminists who show eternal hostility to men and see patriarchy 'baked into' everything. Who turn every alleged 'microaggression' into an Epic Battle With The Patriarchy and have a chip on their shoulder the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. Who've been trained to think of themselves as forever victims. Argggh, i want to write an article about how white people can firmly but politely stand up to anti-white bigotry but then I'll be shamed as a white supremacist lol!
“Argggh, i want to write an article about how white people can firmly but politely stand up to anti-white bigotry but then I'll be shamed as a white supremacist lol!”
The only thing wrong with this entire excellent comment is the “lol” at the end of it.
That you don’t right such an article for exactly that reason is precisely why the left in the West is completely broken and morally bankrupt.
The reason you fear writing such a piece is very similar to the reason why most Dem politicians and even influencers don’t condemn the hard leftist bullies with their Marxist tactics.
And it’s why anyone who thinks for themselves should be unable to support Dems or leftist parties at least in any national election, however imperfect the right-of center alternative is.
Because the right does not immorally cave to its antisemitic, pro-Hamas wing. While the left is a combination of *proud of* being pro-Hamas and unwilling to denounce said immoral barbaric posture, with the latter group instead happy to appease the former.
Actually, I don't fear anything. I feel the censorious bonds of the wokenazis loosening every day. I haven't written it yet because I haven't done research. I haven't figured out what the bullet points would be. It's on the list, though. Along with my slowly-growing ideas for what a new Fifth Wave of feminism would look like.
“Bilkszto challenged her politely and offered facts and his personal experience - ‘lived experience’, in woke parlance, which is held as almost the highest standard of ‘evidence’ by the progressive left…”
I suspect you know this, but… your claim here of “almost the highest standard of ‘evidence’” for the progressive left is incorrect.
“Lived experience” is *only* valid when it is from people with intersectionality points.
When it is that of a white male, it is no evidence at all.
I hope his family sues the government and the consultant both for millions, and wins.
Since because of what they allowed to happen repeatedly, he will have no more lived experiences.
What can we do to challenge that? Lived experiences needs to include everyone. It's never just for 'marginalized' groups, many of which aren't much marginalized anyway. Do you ever challenge that notion, that you don't have a 'lived experience' that's valid as a white man? I ask sincerley, not judgementally.
I challenge the premise that “lived experience” makes one’s position or logic more valid. Especially when the topic is public policy.
A great way to present this to a leftist is to point out “Just because you’ve never served in the military doesn’t mean your opinion on how much we spend on defense or which wars are worthwhile versus senseless is invalid, despite your lack of ‘lived experience’”.
Lived experiences are important, but they're also subject to scrutiny. When I wrote on Medium, I seemed surrounded by women who swam in patriarchy and black women who slogged through systematic, 'baked in' racism every day. And I'm like, "How come I never notice all the patriarchy?" Which led me to invent my own Zen feminist koan: If a man acts misogynist and women don't notice, have they been oppressed?
'Lived experiences' are personal anecdotes which may be more or less accurate, and sometimes are filtered through an incredible amount of bias, bigotry, trauma, privilege, or whatever. But it's not *evidence*. It's testimony, maybe, and it's subject to the court of opinion. And yeah, you don't have to have specific experiences to be able to comment on them. I'm allowed to have opinions on the extent of racism against blacks (or lack thereof) even though I'm white. You can have opinions on women or feminism even though you're not a woman. We can have opinions on the rich and the poor without ever having been either, but sometimes someone who's been there has a lot to teach from their own lived experience.
“Lived experiences are important, but they're also subject to scrutiny”
You are not allowed to be a card-carrying member of the left tribe and believe this, much less say it out loud.
Your statement is literally (old school definition) the opposite of the use of that language by the activist left.
Lived experience is the final word on any subject - at least when it a) comes from a person with the appropriate number of intersectionality points, and b) tows the leftist line.
To suggest otherwise is to be a racist, anti-LGBTQ++++ bigot.
You don’t get to just define words or challenge phrases after leftists have already done so.
This is what I meant by pointing out you will not be able to long maintain your “left lean” if you continue to insist on thinking for yourself.
You appear to have a limited understanding of who's on the left. The ones I think we both agree on are the woke 'progressives', who are actually the Regressive Left, having successfully kicked out any actual progressivism. Some folks on the left are still truly progressive and don't go in for all the woke stupidity. I identify a a liberal, but more traditionalist. I came of age in '80s (graduated high school, college) and I still believe in the values of free speech, individualism, giving a leg up to others who were born on the wrong rung of the economic ladder ('privilege' in woke parlance, although they don't understand what it means), etc. The difference between myself and the woke left is that I understand the need for boundaries. That some free speech isn't protected and it's outlined in the Constitution, and so-called 'hate speech' is. Although we've had to draw a few boundaries around that too, because I'm not okay with saying, "kill all the gay Lilliputians for Jesus".
Ideology is a spectrum, on both sides of the center. My right-wing friends aren't 'right wing' the way many would say--a blanket condemnation of the right. The folks just to the right of center aren't much different from me on t'other side. So I know how the woke define words and hold 'lived experience' on high on the Tabernacle, but I don't agree with them--and since they've taken liberties with words and meanings I'm doing the same.
Andrew Doyle on Tara Henley's Lean Out podcast recently made the point that the real battle we're fighting is not between left and right, but liberty lovers and authoritarians. It's clear there are many of both on both sides. So the question isn't actually, "Are you left or right?" but "Are you in favour of liberty or not?" If a person can only see the authoritarianism on the *other* side--they're authoritarians. They approve of what their side is doing and supporting and they probably don't even recognize it as authoritarianism.
I'm looking for my fellow liberty-lovers, whichever side they're on. Are you?
Some people love to bully other people. And these initiatives give them an excuse to feel good about it. There’s nothing more dangerous or seductive than sanctimoniousness. So it hardly a surprise that things sometimes go horribly wrong.
Whatta grift these people have! They get paid to hate on white people! And encourage MORE racism rather than less, with classes that feed the need for ‘antiracism’ training!
🙄🙄🙄
It’s not racism when it is done by black people to white people!
Only white people can be racist.
How can you possibly not know this?
You need to brush up on your oppressor-oppressed training, else you will need to be reeducated.
You really need to read Jonathan's Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" to understand political ideologies, and what drives their various proponents. It's incredibly eye-opening. You'll stop confusing your liberals, or one thing, but I imagine you're probably confusing conservatives too.
Liberty lovers *always* think for themselves. It doesn't matter which 'side' you're on.
P.S. Heads up, we're on the same team :)
Would love to be in one of those classes, I’d let her have it, I would relish an opportunity to do so. Any consequences would be worth getting under that nasty racists skin.
LOL. I like to think the same thing but if you're in a DEI class you're almost certainly being forced to by an employer, and if you give her too much crap it could get you fired.
Bilkszto sued the TDSB and I think the DEI bitch too, but he still killed himself. She must be so relieved.
Having been involved in DEI since the early days and looking back on it after rejecting the whole paradigm, it’s clear that such a subjective role is ripe for grifters to play victim and take advantage of guilty white people to enrich themselves. I’ve become cynical about all of it. I think people who make their money thus are unqualified for much else and happened to get lucky in when they jumped on the white guilt gravy train.
Sorry but white people need to stop being so fragile about being called a racist.
Some white individuals are racist. But not all white people are, and those who aren’t are well within their rights to push back when they are called racist simply because of their skin color. People who make such blanket accusations need to stop being so fragile when they’re called out on their stereotyping.
“People who make such blanket accusations need to stop being so fragile when they’re called out on their stereotyping.”
Due respect, you have this wrong. Those people are not being fragile; they have figured out how to weaponize - and in some cases like this one, monetize - the white guilt of so many on the left.
Were it only the first instance of what she did, I would actually say that it is the now dead educator who needed to stop being so fragile.
That they let it continue even after being notified of obviously egregious behavior -meaning they were endorsing it - is what is heinous and imo makes both the government and the consultant partially responsible for the man’s death.
I agree we should push back. This poor guy pushed back but didn’t have the strength to withstand the judgement of the haters and the cowardice of the people who wouldn’t stand up for him though they knew better.
Exactly! Sticks and stones, if you don’t know me, fuck you, your judgement means dick.
I disagree in this case.
Were it only the first instance of what the consultant did, I would actually agree with you and say that it is the now dead educator who needed to stop being so fragile.
That they let it continue even after being notified of obviously egregious behavior meant the government was actively endorsing it. That is heinous and imo makes both the government and the consultant partially responsible for the man’s suicide.
I hope his family wins millions.
What I'm reading right now :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Guilt_(book)
(no...it's not written by Robin DiAngelo :) )
Excellent read. Enjoy!
DEI based on Critical Social Justice is toxic bullshit. And it is amazing that Richard's colleagues were all too afraid to speak, or they agreed with the abuse. In any case, a pox on them all.
It's hardly amazing. Canadian education is just as woke-infested as American education. And wokies are a bunch of wusses. The private chats revealed not everyone was down with the racism training they were getting from Ojo-Thompson and that they agreed with Richard. Now at the City of Sarnia (close to the American border if you're not familiar with it), several of them challenged her and she ran out with her tail between her legs.
“And wokies are a bunch of wusses.”
If wokies were merely wusses the problem wouldn’t be nearly as bad as it is.
Woke activists are now the bullies.
And now they're finding out what it feels like to be on the receiving end. Tragically, Americans have merely exchanged woke rightism for woke leftism. Brand new management, same as the last.
And as the left laments the demise of Stephen Colbert (was it political? Financial? Does he just suck?), another tragedy is that humour will still continue to suck, because now it will be verboten to criticize the right, rather than the left.
One-trick ponies are *always* boring.
“…Americans have merely exchanged woke rightism for woke leftism.”
Sorry, but the problems of right populism and bullying from the right are not at all “woke” in any sense of that term.
“… because now it will be verboten to criticize the right, rather than the left.”
How do you get to THAT conclusion?
Care to - as Bryan Caplan says - Bet On It?
Because you would lose rather badly.
Trump / the right does not control the culture, MSM, Hollywood, social media.
Watch what they're doing with the universities and the MSM. Hollywood and social media (probably not Elon) are merely waiting in line.
We probably do agree on many more things that we disagree. But I don’t understand your point here. Or if I do I completely disagree with it.
You’re saying that any of those groups have moved to the right, let alone “woke right”?
I agree that “Peak Woke” has probably happened. But it’s not a huge retreat. It’s mostly a plateau with a *very* gentle downslope.
Are you really claiming there is not still massive net criticism of the right in MSM, Hollywood and social media ex-X?!?
Oh YEAH??? (Yeah, I know, brilliant riposte :) )
https://www.persuasion.community/p/the-woke-right-stands-at-the-door
lol, I read that piece previously.
I am aware that some on the left, including the center-left, are trying to claim there is a “woke” right.
That doesn’t make it true.
Again, there are plenty of things wrong with the hard right. What they do share in common with the woke left is a desire to use authoritarian government power to impose what they want on others.
But it still doesn’t make them “woke” in ANY sense of that term.
Sure and many supposed ‘leaders’ in education are no leaders at all, they may have leadership titles, but they are mostly followers, conformists and afraid of their own shadow. I am involved this kind of nonsense as a parent at the OCDSB, we have a long fight ahead of us.
People are bullies. And what better excuse than denouncing racism? There’s nothing like the feeling of self-righteousness. And even a man’s tragic suicide isn’t enough to make this woman reflect on her behavior. The TDSB needs to stop throwing money at these bogus sessions.
It reminds me of all the whiny white Medium feminists who show eternal hostility to men and see patriarchy 'baked into' everything. Who turn every alleged 'microaggression' into an Epic Battle With The Patriarchy and have a chip on their shoulder the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. Who've been trained to think of themselves as forever victims. Argggh, i want to write an article about how white people can firmly but politely stand up to anti-white bigotry but then I'll be shamed as a white supremacist lol!
“Argggh, i want to write an article about how white people can firmly but politely stand up to anti-white bigotry but then I'll be shamed as a white supremacist lol!”
The only thing wrong with this entire excellent comment is the “lol” at the end of it.
That you don’t right such an article for exactly that reason is precisely why the left in the West is completely broken and morally bankrupt.
The reason you fear writing such a piece is very similar to the reason why most Dem politicians and even influencers don’t condemn the hard leftist bullies with their Marxist tactics.
And it’s why anyone who thinks for themselves should be unable to support Dems or leftist parties at least in any national election, however imperfect the right-of center alternative is.
Because the right does not immorally cave to its antisemitic, pro-Hamas wing. While the left is a combination of *proud of* being pro-Hamas and unwilling to denounce said immoral barbaric posture, with the latter group instead happy to appease the former.
“First they came for the trade unionists…”
Maybe you should check out my Men's Stuff section to see how I've offered help and resources on how to handle the excesses of feminism:
https://growsomelabia.substack.com/t/mens-stuff
https://growsomelabia.substack.com/p/random-stuff-men-say-that-depress (the full title is cut off but it's very pro-male)
https://growsomelabia.substack.com/p/how-can-men-tell-their-stories-and
https://growsomelabia.substack.com/p/men-we-need-you-to-tell-your-truths
Actually, I don't fear anything. I feel the censorious bonds of the wokenazis loosening every day. I haven't written it yet because I haven't done research. I haven't figured out what the bullet points would be. It's on the list, though. Along with my slowly-growing ideas for what a new Fifth Wave of feminism would look like.
Absolutely! It will be uncomfortable but it’s our duty.