The Gisele Pelicot case highlights just how frighteningly high is the number of 'normal' men who have a penchant for, and might be willing to act on, rape.
Anerica has more men doing time for rape than any other crime. Does anyone actually believe more men rape than who steal, or who are in possession of illegal drugs?
And if you’re going to be bold enough to claim women can’t consent if they’ve had any alcohol, you simply MUST make the same claim about men,
Do you have a source for the claim about men doing time for rape more than any other crime? Since so few women report, that seems a little weird, but it would be great to know there are more in prison than we think. Maybe more women are growing some labia after all.
As for men and consent and alcohol, for sure except...it doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a problem for them. And when the rape happens by a woman, they are indeed less bothered by it. Happened to a male friend of mine many years ago, he got drunk and passed out at a party and woke up to find one of the guests trying to have sex with him. But he was too drunk to get it up and he said she gave up. I thought that was incredibly horrible but he just shrugged his shoulders and was like, 'Whatever'. I doubt he would have been so circumspect had it been a man trying to pump his bumhole.
Do you know of any men who were distressed by rape-by-alcohol? I've never encountered one, but it would be interesting.
Only by combining murder (163k) and manslaughter (20k) into a single homicide category can 168k rape/SA prisoners be topped. Around 10 o’clock, you’ll see that all non-federal drug convictions combined only yield 134k. There are 34k more state jail inmates doing time for rape than for drugs—men almost to a man!—which is only 4k short of the ENTIRE INCARCERATED POPULATION of Canada.
Consider how much harder it is to prove rape/SA vs. intent to distribute, possession, or even just intoxication (although the latter typically appears as a public-order offense; the 16k DWI prisoners are the pie slice just to the right of the drug slice). Between these numbers and the infamous national backlog of untested rape kits, there is good reason to question the received wisdom that “so few women report.” But there are a few other things to point out on the pie chart.
Continuing counterclockwise, all fraud, burglary, and theft COMBINED give us 139k property-crime incarcerations, as opposed to 168k for rape/SA. Even including the 25k in county jails (orange pie slice, 2 o’clock) would fall 4k short of a tie. And here again, note that property theft cases are MUCH easier to prove than rape/SA cases, which frequently hinge on a “he-said/she-said” component.
Now, some of this can be explained by the fact that many drug cases are “victimless crimes” for which prison time is neither mandated nor generally recommended when monitored recovery in the real world is an option. Likewise, while property crime may not be victimless, its injuries tend to be financial and/or sentimental in nature rather than traumatically, invasively physical.
But America’s 168k incarcerated rape/SA convicts also outnumber those doing time for the violently victimizing crimes of robbery (128k) and assault (154k), which includes everything from slapping to non-fatal shooting.
Again, rape/SA is notoriously difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt, since even a forensically proven sex act MIGHT have been engaged in for mutual pleasure, something that can never be said of cracked ribs or a stab wound. Yet somehow there are 10% more sentences being served for sexual than nonsexual assault. Curious, isn’t it?
Wow, that is interesting! I checked out the PPI because I wasn’t familiar with it—it seems to check out as a good source (I say seems because I didn’t do a comprehensive search. But that pie chart is interesting. Now I wonder this much: It doesn’t say how SA is defined. I don’t know about the US (like whether it’s comprehensive or state-by-state) but in Canada, or at least here in Ontario, SA is a very fuzzy term. It can sometimes mean anything from an ass grab to a full-on assault. So I would like to know more about how they define that, which they don’t say that I can find. I searched for ‘rape’ and checked the methodology, which is very brief.
If they’re critical sexual assaults, then it points to it being more highly reported - and getting convictions - than we know.
I’m actually thinking about reaching out to Timothy Buss, the guy who wrote the Bad Men book, to get some more information (although he probably can’t offer an opinion on the pie chart).
I don’t know. I think there is something that could be described as rape culture, and certainly in the manosphere (the Andrew Tate types). And I don’t know, seriously, if anyone’s doing time for grabassery, unless it’s a few days in the county jail…esp if they’re drunk and obnoxious :) Mostly like they’re just released with a court date to come explain why they shouldn’t get fined (“She made me do it!”) lol. I want to know more about those rape stats in the pie chart. I know you don’t have them but I may look into this more. Because I wonder….is it real rape or woke rape? Defined somehow more broadly than we might?
Ten years ago, an ex-CBC radio host went on trial for committing sexual assault against three women from a decade prior. In not a single case did the assault take place below the neck*. But Ontario law has gotten so broad that beating someone in the head (clear physical assault!), when on a date, comprises ‘sexual assault” (hands may have gone below the neck at some point but probably consensually, and there was no beating below the neck). It was one of the weirdest things this ol’ American had ever seen. Jian Ghomeshi, if you want to Google it. Rosie DiManno at the Toronto Star took down the idiotic victims big-time - it was ridiculous the stupid shit they did to get the whole thing thrown out of court. That’s the case that began to radicalize me against woke, or as I called it at the time, ‘victim’ feminism.
How to report a rape conducted by a woman’s exboyfriend, when they are sitting on a couch after going to a movie together, ‘as friends’? Btw, she was wearing a skirt. She said no, but didn’t scream. She would only be subjecting herself to ridicule at worst, but more likely indifference, and even possibly, hostility, for ‘trying to ruin his life’. Women who don’t report every rape are not collaborating with rapists. Way to victim blame.
I get the victim blaming thing a lot. But again I ask...am I *wrong*? I'm distressed by all those serial rapists - how many women let them get away with it? How are police supposed to react if the rape is never reported? What she was wearing, and how she reacted, is irrelevant in your examples here. Does she report or doesn't she? 100% of unreported rapes result in zero convictions. Is my math wrong?
Are we just going to passively accept that it's more difficult, and stigmatizing, to report a rape than it should be or will we *change the system*, insist on better treatment of rape victims? Not to mention immediate attention and ready-to-use rape kits?
I wonder how many first-time rapists who are reported and either stand trial or are convicted go on to rape again, vs those who are taught by one or more victims that he can get away with it because they won't report it. I don't have that answer, and TMK, neither does anyone else, but I might try reaching out to Timothy Buss or some other expert and ask.
So brave of this woman. How many evil people is she stopping from doing more evil? She is a hero. To be abused that way and come out empowered. She’s the heroine people pretend they are but really aren’t.
The more these secret crimes are exposed, the more the perpetrators will have to think twice about indulging their fantasies. One day they will be too ashamed to abuse women.
Not reporting a rape is not providing tacit permission to repeat the crime elsewhere. It's not incumbent on the survivor to stop the perpetration of rape, but rather on the judicial system and "the brotherhood" of decent men to deter others from committing the act. Yes, reporting it would *possibly* serve as a deterrent, but many women are simply too traumatized to have to experience a trial, too. This is not a black and white issue.
No, it's not black and white, but when a woman lets a man get away with it she teaches him that he may get away with the next one, if he's so inclined to rape again. For some, having breached that boundary once, he may be more willing to do it a second time (although not all will). Given how much rape activists keep telling us how 80-90% of rapists aren't prosecuted, or convicted, or reported, or whatever, it re-emphasizes the message that this is a crime you can often get away with...esp if she's out like a light.
You're right about the traumatization but.................................and this is the part everyone hates................................what's going to change if women don't report it more? And go through the trial? They may not need to be there in court as Gisele has chosen.
What we can do a feminists and activists is to explore how we can make it somewhat easier for the victims, and hold the judicial system more accountable than they have been.
BUT...and this is big....women have GOT to report IMMEDIATELY. Not days and weeks and months later. I'm sorry, there's no getting around that unless I'm missing something.
But without reporting how is the judicial system supposed to function (i.e. investigate, prosecute, charge and convict perpetrators)? It is this process which leads to deterrence. It is the stick of our society if you will.
I haven’t read Bad Men and wouldn’t try to take anything away from it, but humans have weird fantasies and yes most never see the light of day. A lot of woman enjoy fantasies where they are raped or gang raped also. What are we to make of that? That’s an awkward thing for feminists and especially for anti-rape activists (as it should be!).
For sure, but a woman who fantasizes about gang rape probably doesn't want it to happen for real, where she has no control over what happens. And if she goes looking for it...well...I don't know that that's ever happened. I want to investigate more the violent fantasies men have and how much they act on it, really. Were these guys just *saying* that to sound more badass? I don't know. I'm also wondering about the violent fantasies women might have they never act on...castrating rapists, beating up an ex, whatever.
Right but just as women don’t want those fantasies to happen for real, the vast majority of men who have rape fantasies also don’t act them out for real. That group by the way are already a subset of the male population.
Great article and whilst I understand what you are trying to say, it does sound a little like victim blaming, I.e. if one victim does not report it then does that, in someway, make them partly responsible the next time that person rapes. I agree that women need to report rapes and sexual assaults as that is the only way we will see the true scale of the problem, but many times the reason it is not reported is not just because of the social stigma but also because of the way it is handled by the authorities, often with little dignity or respect and also with a certain amount of victim blaming as well.
So how do we change this culture if we can’t rely on women to report it and we can’t rely on the authorities to treat it with the appropriate respect it deserves then the only other thing is education aimed at young men. They have to be taught to understand the level of trauma this causes, they also have to be taught what actually constitutes rape, I.e. any woman who is under the influence of drugs or alcohol cannot consent period. Perhaps it would be good for some of the brave women who are willing to speak of their experiences, to be the ones to provide that education. Another big factor here though is culture and with the massive rise in immigration by people from cultures that do not place the same values on women as western cultures, this problem is only going to get worse. All I can say is education, education, education!
"Great article and whilst I understand what you are trying to say, it does sound a little like victim blaming, I.e. if one victim does not report it then does that, in someway, make them partly responsible the next time that person rapes."
Yes, it does sound like that........but........am I wrong?
"social stigma but also because of the way it is handled by the authorities, often with little dignity or respect and also with a certain amount of victim blaming as well."
This is something we've got to address and part of why I'm so fascinated with the Pelicot case is because she's handling this like a major badass. Obviously we can't all be like that but she's a role model, isn't she? Maybe others can do this too.
I can't get around the fact that some of these guys rape many times, sometimes ten or more...and I wonder...how many prior victims didn't report him? How many fewer would have been raped if someone had?
We can complain about the judicial system all we want, but what about when victims finally come forward with no evidence? One thing I love about the E. Jean Carroll rape case against Trump is that she had the evidence on a dress...which she kept for *30 years*...and if he'd wanted to exonerate himself he could have, but he chose not to. Which looks pretty damning, even though he can't be compelled.
SAVE THE EVIDENCE!!!
" then the only other thing is education aimed at young men. They have to be taught to understand the level of trauma this causes, they also have to be taught what actually constitutes rape, I.e. any woman who is under the influence of drugs or alcohol cannot consent period."
We've already educated them to death. They may *never* understand how traumatizing this is until they've been subjected to worrying about rape themselves. It's only 'bothersome' to think about a woman raping them, but most men I know pee their pants at the thought of a *man* raping them...in an orifice not built for that.
Let's start having men who've been raped in prison talk honestly about that with other men...because if more women start reporting immediately, and more men are thinking about what it means to have a cute ass in prison....that may deter them far more. For years now, we've been teaching men it's wrong. The ones that get it don't rape. The rest do it anyway because *they don't care* or because *they know how much trauma they're causing*.
Here's the ugly thing about unconscious rape...the woman may *never* know she was raped, and ergo there's no evidence. The mf'ers in the pelicot trial knew damn well they were raping a woman, they just pretended to themselves they weren't.
You're right about the problems with immigrants who aren't as.....educated....about rape as native Americans/Canadians are. I'm not sure they care.
I would love to talk to rape activists who are willing to consider what we have to do to de-stigmatize rape and hold the judicial system accountable - and that's when they screw up, not when the women do by waiting too long.
I wonder whether the Pelicot trial would have gotten as far as it had if there were no videos. Since there's no, TMK, biological evidence.
Maybe that is the key point here, the fact that many of these guys rape multiple times, so we need more women to come forward and follow in Pelicot's footsteps regardless of the social stigma or the reactions of the police and the judicial system, if you throw enough mud then some of it has to stick.
I do like your suggestion to have men talk about their own rape experiences in prison, as a heterosexual man, that would certainly help to drive the message home of the trauma that causes, because after all rape is not just about sexual desire it is about power and being the bitch of some hulking great con is going to be a pretty traumatic experience.
Anerica has more men doing time for rape than any other crime. Does anyone actually believe more men rape than who steal, or who are in possession of illegal drugs?
And if you’re going to be bold enough to claim women can’t consent if they’ve had any alcohol, you simply MUST make the same claim about men,
Do you have a source for the claim about men doing time for rape more than any other crime? Since so few women report, that seems a little weird, but it would be great to know there are more in prison than we think. Maybe more women are growing some labia after all.
As for men and consent and alcohol, for sure except...it doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a problem for them. And when the rape happens by a woman, they are indeed less bothered by it. Happened to a male friend of mine many years ago, he got drunk and passed out at a party and woke up to find one of the guests trying to have sex with him. But he was too drunk to get it up and he said she gave up. I thought that was incredibly horrible but he just shrugged his shoulders and was like, 'Whatever'. I doubt he would have been so circumspect had it been a man trying to pump his bumhole.
Do you know of any men who were distressed by rape-by-alcohol? I've never encountered one, but it would be interesting.
Check around 6 o’clock on the pie chart: www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html
Only by combining murder (163k) and manslaughter (20k) into a single homicide category can 168k rape/SA prisoners be topped. Around 10 o’clock, you’ll see that all non-federal drug convictions combined only yield 134k. There are 34k more state jail inmates doing time for rape than for drugs—men almost to a man!—which is only 4k short of the ENTIRE INCARCERATED POPULATION of Canada.
Consider how much harder it is to prove rape/SA vs. intent to distribute, possession, or even just intoxication (although the latter typically appears as a public-order offense; the 16k DWI prisoners are the pie slice just to the right of the drug slice). Between these numbers and the infamous national backlog of untested rape kits, there is good reason to question the received wisdom that “so few women report.” But there are a few other things to point out on the pie chart.
Continuing counterclockwise, all fraud, burglary, and theft COMBINED give us 139k property-crime incarcerations, as opposed to 168k for rape/SA. Even including the 25k in county jails (orange pie slice, 2 o’clock) would fall 4k short of a tie. And here again, note that property theft cases are MUCH easier to prove than rape/SA cases, which frequently hinge on a “he-said/she-said” component.
Now, some of this can be explained by the fact that many drug cases are “victimless crimes” for which prison time is neither mandated nor generally recommended when monitored recovery in the real world is an option. Likewise, while property crime may not be victimless, its injuries tend to be financial and/or sentimental in nature rather than traumatically, invasively physical.
But America’s 168k incarcerated rape/SA convicts also outnumber those doing time for the violently victimizing crimes of robbery (128k) and assault (154k), which includes everything from slapping to non-fatal shooting.
Again, rape/SA is notoriously difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt, since even a forensically proven sex act MIGHT have been engaged in for mutual pleasure, something that can never be said of cracked ribs or a stab wound. Yet somehow there are 10% more sentences being served for sexual than nonsexual assault. Curious, isn’t it?
Wow, that is interesting! I checked out the PPI because I wasn’t familiar with it—it seems to check out as a good source (I say seems because I didn’t do a comprehensive search. But that pie chart is interesting. Now I wonder this much: It doesn’t say how SA is defined. I don’t know about the US (like whether it’s comprehensive or state-by-state) but in Canada, or at least here in Ontario, SA is a very fuzzy term. It can sometimes mean anything from an ass grab to a full-on assault. So I would like to know more about how they define that, which they don’t say that I can find. I searched for ‘rape’ and checked the methodology, which is very brief.
If they’re critical sexual assaults, then it points to it being more highly reported - and getting convictions - than we know.
I’m actually thinking about reaching out to Timothy Buss, the guy who wrote the Bad Men book, to get some more information (although he probably can’t offer an opinion on the pie chart).
Yeah, every state has slightly different statutes, but it's safe to assume nobody's doing time for mere grabassery.
But whatever form it takes, rape/SA is certainly nowhere near the most common crime! “Rape culture” is no more real than “trans genocide.”
I don’t know. I think there is something that could be described as rape culture, and certainly in the manosphere (the Andrew Tate types). And I don’t know, seriously, if anyone’s doing time for grabassery, unless it’s a few days in the county jail…esp if they’re drunk and obnoxious :) Mostly like they’re just released with a court date to come explain why they shouldn’t get fined (“She made me do it!”) lol. I want to know more about those rape stats in the pie chart. I know you don’t have them but I may look into this more. Because I wonder….is it real rape or woke rape? Defined somehow more broadly than we might?
Ten years ago, an ex-CBC radio host went on trial for committing sexual assault against three women from a decade prior. In not a single case did the assault take place below the neck*. But Ontario law has gotten so broad that beating someone in the head (clear physical assault!), when on a date, comprises ‘sexual assault” (hands may have gone below the neck at some point but probably consensually, and there was no beating below the neck). It was one of the weirdest things this ol’ American had ever seen. Jian Ghomeshi, if you want to Google it. Rosie DiManno at the Toronto Star took down the idiotic victims big-time - it was ridiculous the stupid shit they did to get the whole thing thrown out of court. That’s the case that began to radicalize me against woke, or as I called it at the time, ‘victim’ feminism.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-sexual-assault-trial-ruling-1.3505446
How to report a rape conducted by a woman’s exboyfriend, when they are sitting on a couch after going to a movie together, ‘as friends’? Btw, she was wearing a skirt. She said no, but didn’t scream. She would only be subjecting herself to ridicule at worst, but more likely indifference, and even possibly, hostility, for ‘trying to ruin his life’. Women who don’t report every rape are not collaborating with rapists. Way to victim blame.
Is there a reason she didn’t, I dunno, stand up?
I get the victim blaming thing a lot. But again I ask...am I *wrong*? I'm distressed by all those serial rapists - how many women let them get away with it? How are police supposed to react if the rape is never reported? What she was wearing, and how she reacted, is irrelevant in your examples here. Does she report or doesn't she? 100% of unreported rapes result in zero convictions. Is my math wrong?
Are we just going to passively accept that it's more difficult, and stigmatizing, to report a rape than it should be or will we *change the system*, insist on better treatment of rape victims? Not to mention immediate attention and ready-to-use rape kits?
I wonder how many first-time rapists who are reported and either stand trial or are convicted go on to rape again, vs those who are taught by one or more victims that he can get away with it because they won't report it. I don't have that answer, and TMK, neither does anyone else, but I might try reaching out to Timothy Buss or some other expert and ask.
Passivity doesn't work. It never has.
So brave of this woman. How many evil people is she stopping from doing more evil? She is a hero. To be abused that way and come out empowered. She’s the heroine people pretend they are but really aren’t.
The more these secret crimes are exposed, the more the perpetrators will have to think twice about indulging their fantasies. One day they will be too ashamed to abuse women.
Not reporting a rape is not providing tacit permission to repeat the crime elsewhere. It's not incumbent on the survivor to stop the perpetration of rape, but rather on the judicial system and "the brotherhood" of decent men to deter others from committing the act. Yes, reporting it would *possibly* serve as a deterrent, but many women are simply too traumatized to have to experience a trial, too. This is not a black and white issue.
No, it's not black and white, but when a woman lets a man get away with it she teaches him that he may get away with the next one, if he's so inclined to rape again. For some, having breached that boundary once, he may be more willing to do it a second time (although not all will). Given how much rape activists keep telling us how 80-90% of rapists aren't prosecuted, or convicted, or reported, or whatever, it re-emphasizes the message that this is a crime you can often get away with...esp if she's out like a light.
You're right about the traumatization but.................................and this is the part everyone hates................................what's going to change if women don't report it more? And go through the trial? They may not need to be there in court as Gisele has chosen.
What we can do a feminists and activists is to explore how we can make it somewhat easier for the victims, and hold the judicial system more accountable than they have been.
BUT...and this is big....women have GOT to report IMMEDIATELY. Not days and weeks and months later. I'm sorry, there's no getting around that unless I'm missing something.
But without reporting how is the judicial system supposed to function (i.e. investigate, prosecute, charge and convict perpetrators)? It is this process which leads to deterrence. It is the stick of our society if you will.
I haven’t read Bad Men and wouldn’t try to take anything away from it, but humans have weird fantasies and yes most never see the light of day. A lot of woman enjoy fantasies where they are raped or gang raped also. What are we to make of that? That’s an awkward thing for feminists and especially for anti-rape activists (as it should be!).
For sure, but a woman who fantasizes about gang rape probably doesn't want it to happen for real, where she has no control over what happens. And if she goes looking for it...well...I don't know that that's ever happened. I want to investigate more the violent fantasies men have and how much they act on it, really. Were these guys just *saying* that to sound more badass? I don't know. I'm also wondering about the violent fantasies women might have they never act on...castrating rapists, beating up an ex, whatever.
Right but just as women don’t want those fantasies to happen for real, the vast majority of men who have rape fantasies also don’t act them out for real. That group by the way are already a subset of the male population.
Great article and whilst I understand what you are trying to say, it does sound a little like victim blaming, I.e. if one victim does not report it then does that, in someway, make them partly responsible the next time that person rapes. I agree that women need to report rapes and sexual assaults as that is the only way we will see the true scale of the problem, but many times the reason it is not reported is not just because of the social stigma but also because of the way it is handled by the authorities, often with little dignity or respect and also with a certain amount of victim blaming as well.
So how do we change this culture if we can’t rely on women to report it and we can’t rely on the authorities to treat it with the appropriate respect it deserves then the only other thing is education aimed at young men. They have to be taught to understand the level of trauma this causes, they also have to be taught what actually constitutes rape, I.e. any woman who is under the influence of drugs or alcohol cannot consent period. Perhaps it would be good for some of the brave women who are willing to speak of their experiences, to be the ones to provide that education. Another big factor here though is culture and with the massive rise in immigration by people from cultures that do not place the same values on women as western cultures, this problem is only going to get worse. All I can say is education, education, education!
"Great article and whilst I understand what you are trying to say, it does sound a little like victim blaming, I.e. if one victim does not report it then does that, in someway, make them partly responsible the next time that person rapes."
Yes, it does sound like that........but........am I wrong?
"social stigma but also because of the way it is handled by the authorities, often with little dignity or respect and also with a certain amount of victim blaming as well."
This is something we've got to address and part of why I'm so fascinated with the Pelicot case is because she's handling this like a major badass. Obviously we can't all be like that but she's a role model, isn't she? Maybe others can do this too.
I can't get around the fact that some of these guys rape many times, sometimes ten or more...and I wonder...how many prior victims didn't report him? How many fewer would have been raped if someone had?
We can complain about the judicial system all we want, but what about when victims finally come forward with no evidence? One thing I love about the E. Jean Carroll rape case against Trump is that she had the evidence on a dress...which she kept for *30 years*...and if he'd wanted to exonerate himself he could have, but he chose not to. Which looks pretty damning, even though he can't be compelled.
SAVE THE EVIDENCE!!!
" then the only other thing is education aimed at young men. They have to be taught to understand the level of trauma this causes, they also have to be taught what actually constitutes rape, I.e. any woman who is under the influence of drugs or alcohol cannot consent period."
We've already educated them to death. They may *never* understand how traumatizing this is until they've been subjected to worrying about rape themselves. It's only 'bothersome' to think about a woman raping them, but most men I know pee their pants at the thought of a *man* raping them...in an orifice not built for that.
Let's start having men who've been raped in prison talk honestly about that with other men...because if more women start reporting immediately, and more men are thinking about what it means to have a cute ass in prison....that may deter them far more. For years now, we've been teaching men it's wrong. The ones that get it don't rape. The rest do it anyway because *they don't care* or because *they know how much trauma they're causing*.
Here's the ugly thing about unconscious rape...the woman may *never* know she was raped, and ergo there's no evidence. The mf'ers in the pelicot trial knew damn well they were raping a woman, they just pretended to themselves they weren't.
You're right about the problems with immigrants who aren't as.....educated....about rape as native Americans/Canadians are. I'm not sure they care.
I would love to talk to rape activists who are willing to consider what we have to do to de-stigmatize rape and hold the judicial system accountable - and that's when they screw up, not when the women do by waiting too long.
I wonder whether the Pelicot trial would have gotten as far as it had if there were no videos. Since there's no, TMK, biological evidence.
Maybe that is the key point here, the fact that many of these guys rape multiple times, so we need more women to come forward and follow in Pelicot's footsteps regardless of the social stigma or the reactions of the police and the judicial system, if you throw enough mud then some of it has to stick.
I do like your suggestion to have men talk about their own rape experiences in prison, as a heterosexual man, that would certainly help to drive the message home of the trauma that causes, because after all rape is not just about sexual desire it is about power and being the bitch of some hulking great con is going to be a pretty traumatic experience.